Thomas' Confession "My Lord and my God!" (Round Three)
Sam Shamoun
Bassam Zawadi comes out for a third round
(*)
as he once again tries to deny that Thomas was confessing Jesus as his Lord God.
There are only a few points of his "rebuttal" that I want to address since
this will help demonstrate why I had given him the following advice:
Please make sure you have carefully understood what you have read
and heard since this will save you from being embarrassed and exposed for distorting
people's statements. This will also prevent the impression that you are nothing more
than a fraud and deceiver for perverting what others say. If you continue this path of
distortion then this will make it obvious that you can do nothing better than to attack
straw men and/or throw out red herrings.
First of all the commentary says that the individual
cannot use God's name unless it was in a serious manner or if it was showing reverence to
God. Or if it was said in a way of praising God in his mind. Now isn't it POSSIBLE that
when Thomas saw Jesus he said "My God" by meaning that it is indeed by God's
glory and majesty that Jesus resurrected from the dead? Because it was God who did
resurrect Jesus right? (Acts 2:24,32, 3:26; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, Galatians 1:1) So once
Thomas saw Jesus resurrected from the dead he could have simply said "My God" in
a sense of glorifying God. If I look at the sky and see the beautiful stars, I would say
"My God" with the intention in my heart glorifying God's glory and greatness.
This is very reasonable. Plus, I would like Sam to tell me how on earth Jesus in the
following verse used God's name in a way of reverence or praise to Him...
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My
God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
How on earth did Jesus use God's name here in a way of
showing reverence to Him is beyond me. You are not supposed to use God's name in vain by
saying it in a rude or offensive manner. Here we have Jesus accusing and asking God why he
forsake and deserted him.
RESPONSE:
I do not intend to repeat the same point regarding Zawadi committing a chronological
fallacy in trying to make Thomas' confession an exclamation of surprise, since the
readers can judge for themselves whether he has been able to address this or not. What I
do want to address is his appeal to Jesus' cry on the cross to affirm his point.
In the first place, Jesus' cry wasn't an exclamation of surprise but a
prayer. In fact, Jesus was praying aloud the opening words of Psalm 22 which says:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me,
from the words of my groaning?"
The Psalm records the lament of a righteous servant who cries out to God in anguish as
to why he isn't delivering him from the hands of his enemies. The Psalm goes on to
recount God answering the Psalmist's prayer for deliverance, which is what happened
with the Lord Jesus when God raised him from the dead:
But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible
for him to be held by it. Acts 2:24
"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud
cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his
godly fear." Hebrews 5:7
"Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus,
the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with
everything good that you may do his will, working in you that which is pleasing in his
sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:20-21
There are other reasons why Jesus chose to pray the opening lines of this particular
Psalm as we document in the following links:
There is therefore no need for us to repeat ourselves.
Moreover, if Zawadi's appeal to Matthew 27:46 proves anything it merely proves
that Thomas was actually praying to Jesus as his Lord God!
Furthermore, recall that in his first rebuttal
(*)
Zawadi had said:
Now if Jesus was talking plainly then why didn't the disciples
just go and say that they knew Jesus was God and not just sent by God?
To which I responded:
Moreover, note again the glaring inconsistency on the part of Zawadi when he asks why
didn't the apostles go out and claim that Jesus is God. When passages are presented
showing that the disciples did affirm that Jesus is God, Zawadi either denies the plain
meaning of these texts or simply brushes them aside. For instance, notice his response to
what John wrote in his prologue and in 20:30-31:
I could care less about the interpretation of the New
Testament authors. I want to see what Jesus said about himself directly.
And:
Plus, like I said before I could care less about what
the New Testament writers[sic] interpretations I just want to see what Jesus said.
So now what is it? Does Zawadi care or not care about what the Apostles had
to say about Jesus' Deity? (Source)
Now look at what he says:
Thirdly, Sam quotes from Romans and Corinthians how Christians
should view Jesus. My friend Sam, DO YOU THINK THAT I CARE ABOUT WHAT PAUL THINKS?!!! I
know Paul believes Jesus is God. You don't have to try to convince me about this. WHAT I
WANT IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM JESUS' OWN LIPS FROM THE GOSPELS CLAIMING DIVINITY OR CLAIMING
THIS DOCTRINE THAT YOU FOLLOW TODAY. CAN YOU DO THAT SAM? CAN YOU SHOW CLEAR AND
UNAMBIGUOUS VERSES FROM THE LIPS OF JESUS THAT TEACH ABOUT THE TRINITY, HIM DYING FOR THE
SINS OF THE WORLD BEING A SUBSTITUTE AND REPLACEMENT FOR THE LAW? CAN YOU SHOW ME THESE
TWO THINGS AND NOT TWIST VERSES AROUND TO TRY TO PROVE IT? I DON'T THINK SO!!!
Exactly my point. I want to thank Zawadi for proving that what I had said about him was
right on the mark.
He then says:
My Response:
I wasn't appealing to authority. I quoted Michaelis
because what he said was logical. Sam says that
Michaelis
believed in the Deity of Christ and that I didn't read my sources carefully. Um excuse me
Sam, but what did I say in my article?...
Michaelis, a Trinitarian, writes:
I know he is a Trinitarian! That is the whole point! I am
trying to show that not all Trinitarians believe that Thomas was confessing that Jesus was
his God in John 20:28. I could care less about the other reasons that Michaelis has for
believing in the deity of Christ. We are debating John 20:28 here.
RESPONSE:
The point is that Michaelis provided absolutely no contextual evidence to prove his
assertion that Thomas wasn't addressing Jesus, and neither has Zawadi. Therefore,
Zawadi is simply committing the the fallacy of appealing to authority since his source
failed to provide any evidence to support his view. Moreover, Michaelis is a Trinitarian
obviously because the Holy Bible led him to that position, a fact which Zawadi denies
since he tries so hard (but fails miserably and always comes way short) to contest that
the Holy Bible teaches that God is Triune.
As for the verses that Sam posted, well they have been refuted
time and time again...
These are the same typical ambiguous verses that Trinitarians
twist around to try and show the deity of Christ. Anyways I will urge Shamoun to strictly
keep this debate on John 20:28 and not introduce other verses.
These are some of the more explicit verses that prove the Trinitarian position, which
unbelievers try to twist around in order to deny the clarity of these texts in
demonstrating the Deity of the Lord Jesus.
Sam asks...
If the unbelievers could deduce that Jesus was claiming to be God then why
couldn't his disciples?
Well Sam isn't it possible that the unbelievers MISUNDERSTOOD
Jesus?
Shabir is basing his case on the (mis)understanding of the Jews that three
figures were expected to come, and that Christ and the Prophet were two distinct
individuals. (Sam Shamoun, More Evidence of Shabir's Inconsistency: An Analysis
of Shabir Ally's debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh, Source)
Sam over here argues that the Jews could possibly misunderstand
scripture. So isn't it possible that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was trying to say?
I mean if Jesus rebukes them for their lack of understanding scripture...
RESPONSE:
Let us assess the NT data to see whether the unbelievers incorrectly assumed that Jesus
was claiming to be God's Son in a unique manner, in a way which implied his Deity.
1. The Father calls Jesus the beloved Son and God.
"And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold,
the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting
on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom
I am well pleased.'" Matthew 3:16-17
"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up
a high mountain apart by themselves; and he was transfigured before them, and his garments
became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them. And there
appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus. And Peter said to
Jesus, 'Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you
and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah.' For he did not know what to say, for they
were exceedingly afraid. And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud,
'This is my beloved Son; listen to him.' And suddenly looking
around they no longer saw any one with them but Jesus only." Mark 9:2-8
"But about the Son he [the Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, will
last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You
have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above
your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.' He also says, 'In the
beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of
your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You
will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the
same, and your years will never end.'" Hebrews 1:8-12
The translators of the NET Bible say regarding Hebrews 1:8 and 10:
24tn Or possibly, "Your throne is God forever and ever."
This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is
being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The
imagery of God being the Son's throne would seem to be of God being his
authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels?
In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The
μεν...δε (men...de) construction that connects v. 7
with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: "On the one hand, he says of the
angels.on the other hand, he says of the Son." Thus, although it is
grammatically possible that θεος (qeos) in v. 8
should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative
conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong
affirmation of the deity of Christ.
(Source; underline emphasis ours)
28snYou founded the earth...your years will never run out.
In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but
here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the
Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the
Son. (Source;
underline emphasis ours)
2. John the Baptist identified Jesus as the preexistent Son of God.
"Now John was clothed with camel's hair, and had a leather girdle around his
waist, and ate locusts and wild honey. And he preached, saying, 'After me comes he who
is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'"
Mark 1:6-8
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have
beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John bore witness to him, and
cried, 'This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, for
he was before me."')" John 1:14-15
"John answered, 'No one can receive anything except what is given him from
heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been
sent before him. He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who
stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice; therefore this joy of
mine is now full. He must increase, but I must decrease. He who comes from
above is above all; he who is of the earth belongs to the earth, and of the
earth he speaks; he who comes from heaven is above all. He bears
witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony; he who receives
his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the
words of God, for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit; the Father
loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who
believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him." John 3:27-36
3. The Disciples and Apostles said that Jesus is the Son of God and Lord of all.
"But immediately he spoke to them, saying, 'Take heart, it is I; have no
fear.' And Peter answered him, 'Lord, if it is you, bid me come to you on the
water.' He said, 'Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the
water and came to Jesus; but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he
cried out, 'Lord, save me.' Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught
him, saying to him, 'O man of little faith, why did you doubt?' And when they
got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him,
saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'" Matthew 14:27-33
"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his
disciples, 'Who do men say that the Son of man is?' And they said, 'Some
say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the
prophets.' He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter
replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And
Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and
blood has not revealed this to you, but MY FATHER who is in heaven.'"
Matthew 16:13-17
"Nathan'a-el answered him, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You
are the King of Israel!'" John 1:49
"You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus
Christ (he is Lord of all), … And he commanded us to preach to the
people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living
and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in
him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:36, 42-43
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we
exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we
exist." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"For they themselves report concerning us what a welcome we had among you, and how
you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his
Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesuswho delivers us from the
wrath to come." 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
4. Evil spirits testified that Jesus is God's Son, the Holy One.
"And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit;
and he cried out, 'What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have
you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.' But
Jesus rebuked him, saying, 'Be silent, and come out of him!' And the unclean
spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him. And they were all
amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, 'What is this? A new
teaching! With authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey
him.'" Mark 1:21-27
"And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him
and cried out, 'You are the Son of God.' And he strictly ordered
them not to make him known." Mark 3:11-12
5. The Unbelievers understood Jesus to be making Divine claims.
"But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, 'Are
you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?' And Jesus said, 'I AM;
and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the
clouds of heaven.' And the high priest tore his garments, and said, 'Why do we
still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your
decision?' And they all condemned him as deserving death." Mark 14:61-64
"This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke
the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."
John 5:18
"The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I have
shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?' The
Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because
you, being a man, make yourself God.'" John 10:31-33
"The Jews answered him, 'We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because
he has made himself the Son of God.'" John 19:7
The foregoing makes it rather obvious that the unbelievers DID NOT misunderstand Jesus.
Moreover, Jesus NEVER rebuked or corrected the Jews for thinking that Christ was making
Divine claims. In light of Zawadi's assertion that Christ didn't hesitate to
rebuke the Jews when they misunderstood the Scriptures this provides even more evidence
against him since Jesus didn't rebuke the unbelievers, or even his followers, for
thinking that he was claiming to be the Divine Son of God! In fact, Jesus would have had
very good reason to correct the unbelievers in this case if they were wrong about his claiming
to be divine, since these claims were a large part of the reason why they wanted to kill him
(see below also regarding John 8).
Furthermore, there is nothing analagous with the Jews's recognition of Jesus's
Deity and with my comments to Shabir. In the case of the latter we find evidence
that the Jews were wrong since both Jesus and the NT writers confirm that the Christ
and the Prophet are one and the same Person. Zawadi is simply comparing apples and
oranges at this point, being guilty of committing a false analogy.
He quotes John 10:31-39 thinking that this somehow refutes the Deity of Christ.
I had already linked to my article where
I show that the context actually proves that Jesus was claiming to be God. I advise
Zawadi to at least read it instead of simply repeating the same points that have been
addressed over and over again.
Then he says:
Jesus told them the real reason why they wanted to kill him...
John 8:37-40
37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are looking
for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.38 I
am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have
heard from your father. [c]" 39 "Abraham is our
father," they answered. If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then
you would [d] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for
a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.
Abraham did not do such things.
Jesus is accusing them of killing him simply because they do
not like or want to accept his teachings. Jesus clearly stated to them that he is a MAN
who was telling them the truth that he heard from GOD. NOT THAT HE IS GOD!!!!!!!!
The Jews were so desperate to convict Jesus of death. They tried everything...
Zawadi conveniently omits what follows shortly before and after this:
"Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin
is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues
for ever. So if THE SON makes you free, you will be free indeed.'"
John 8:34-36
Here, Jesus clearly differentiates between a son and a slave, refuting Zawadi's
erroneous assertion that Jesus is God's Son in the sense of being his servant. And:
"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I
proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent
me… Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was
glad.' The Jews then said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you
seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before
Abraham came into being, I AM.' So they took up stones to throw at him;
but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple." John 8:42, 56-59
Christ affirms that he came forth from God and that he existed even before Abraham ever
came into existence! It is little wonder that the unbelievers took stones to stone him
since they correctly understood, but didn't accept, Jesus' emphatic declaration
that he preexisted even Abraham!
Hence, this is part of the teachings that they didn't like and wanted to kill
Jesus for since they couldn't accept that a fellow Jew could be the Divine Son of God
who existed with God even before the birth of one of their ancestors!
Zawadi has the audacity to say a little later that:
My Response:
EXACTLY MY POINT. JESUS WAS TALKING PLAINLY
TO THEM. THEN THEY SAID TO HIM THAT HE CAME FROM GOD! COMING FROM GOD DOES NOT PROVE PRE
HUMAN EXISTENCE OR DIVINITY. COMING FROM GOD SIMPLY MEANS BEING SENT FROM GOD. THEY DID
NOT GO AND SAY THAT HE WAS GOD HIMSELF.
SECONDLY, THE ONLY REASON WHY I FOUND THE DISCIPLES' OPINIONS HERE IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE
THEY ARE IN AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION WITH JESUS. THEREFORE, IF THEY SAID THAT JESUS WAS THE
CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE TO HIS FACE AND HE DID NOT OBJECT THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A CASE. BUT
I WON'T ACCEPT TWISTED INTERPRETATIONS OF JESUS' QUOTES.
RESPONSE:
Let me repeat the parts that Zawadi obviously missed:
"for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that
I came from the Father. I came from the Father and have come INTO THE WORLD; again, I am
leaving the world and going to the Father." John 16:27-28
Jesus, speaking plainly, says that he came from God and would return to him, which in
the context of John refers to Christ's prehuman existence in heaven:
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the
will of him who sent me;" John 6:38
"Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?"
John 6:62
The disciples actually did get to see the Son of Man, the Lord Jesus, ascend to the
place from where he had come:
"And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a
cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went,
behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you
stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,
will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'" Acts 1:9-11
In fact, notice what Jesus says in his prayer he gave right after his conversation in
John 16:
"and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory
which I had with you before the world was made." John 17:5
Jesus affirms that he existed with God in glory even before the world began! Since
Zawadi himself concedes that Jesus wasn't speaking figuratively at this point he
cannot now come back and brush this aside as metaphorical language.
We now conclude with Zawadi's own words with a few more points added for good
measure:
Zawadi, again I really have to apologize and say that you haven't refuted the
sound exegesis of John 20:28 that we provided. You did not establish that there are other
valid interpretations of this text. I understand why you think that verses such as John
20:28 are open for other interpretations since, as a Muslim, you are used to reading a
confused and chaotic book that makes little sense:
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are
Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the
Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and
Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirelyclear. So as for
those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not
entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and
seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings
save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We
believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And
none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari). S. 3:7
Hilali-Khan
Sorry pal, but you are not reading the Quran. You are reading God's true Word, the
Holy Bible.
The Holy Bible sternly warned Israel not to intermarry with the pagan nations lest they end up worshiping their gods/goddesses:
“Be sure to keep what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite,
In this post I will show that the true God loves all nations equally, not just Israel. I will demonstrate that God commanded the Israelites to love the foreigner or non-Israelite as a fellow, native-born Israelite, and ordered that the same Law and commands equally apply to both Israelite and
